Then he orders his church to shun the entire family, including small children. The point being that even relatively mild hypoglycaemia is known to impair brain function; if I were involved in an accident whilst hypoglycaemic, I would be considered in law to be driving under the influence of medication. Its good that you told your parents about it, and its good they protected you from further harm. The group gathered around him to pray. Finally, if anyone who is aware of further drunk driving or other forms of abuse,I hope that they will call Child Protective Services. My DSMIV refers to substance related disorders, general alcohol abuse, alcohol dependence, etc. Are they defensive about their drinking habits, ever ready with an excuse even when one is not needed, sensitive to perceived criticism more than most? The victim of somebody elses alcohol is just as much a victim (dead on the road is what I saw over the years) whether the drunk person was self medicating or whatever the reason. I was very clear that R.C. All the years I spent visiting MHPs (mental health professionals) in person, where I drove to their offices, were basically a waste of my time. I think that if RC2 truly loves his children, he will get himself some serious, serious top-drawer psychological and medical help. Ouch. From that day forward, he chose not to drink. Not many would criticize the moderate consumption. It causes me to stretch and to become more understanding. I remember how lonely I was when I first walked away from the spiritually toxic environment that I found in the inner circle of that church. And its important to try. I appreciate the kind words. I pray the Lord will heal you of all your wounds, sir. I suppose its not really known for certain what causes the onset of alcoholism what, for instance, makes some people more susceptible to it than others. Church counseling may be harmful at times, but my experience (and my familys experience) with secular programs or treatment has not always been successful, either. but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. This rare disease is profoundly disabling and usually results in an early death. They are quite different. To the contrary, this blog is littered with stories of the failings of 9 Marks, Acts 29, and a plethora of other churches who have inflicted great harm on people before hundreds if not thousands of people. It wasnt a law back then.. She was in a very fragile place. Yes, that is what I was trying to say earlier, but the html code messed up and my words looked like Velours words. Sprouls alcoholism and the fact hes a jerk are two separate issues. My thing has always been to understand that the addict is probably hurting others and thats not OK. Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. What is that about? Both men have left a trail of shattered relationships. But you should know as well as anyone that you cant get anywhere with an alcoholic by forcing him. There are ways to handle problems that other denominations use that dont involve this evangelical shoot-from-the-hip kick them out response. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. After struggling with this for years, it was like a light bulb was turned on. Rcjr is a gentle spirited man who loves his family and grieves over his sin. I dont think many people in American culture know what to make of people who go to social functions and dont stand around with a drink. While its good that he is in therapy, where is his accountability with other recovering alcoholics? Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. ALL FAKE NEWS. People should not have to die or be maimed before our courts meet out punishments that suit the crime. But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Whatever issues he has and whatever wrong he has done, he is still a human person in need of help, the RIGHT KIND of help. Yes it would be nice, but I just dont see it happening. That is not repentance, no. Im also responsible for furnishing Dee with the MADD letter. 104:1415). youll follow his example. They absolutely cannot be shamed, manipulated, coerced, convinced, or reasoned into sobriety. . Per the sworn affidavit of the arresting Allen County Police Officer Paul Heffner he observed RC Sproul Jr driving left of the center line, failing to maintain his lane, driving off the roadway, striking a curb, and weaving. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. In my opinion, when someone is refused fellowship in the church, there could still be close friends or pastors who keep in touch with this person until they change or refuse the contact. Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. From drinking, to how the non-Xtian men I know have treated women, to spending moneyI have not seen the kind of demonic pandemonium that certain Evangelicals would have us believe results when non-Xtians do anything. RC Jr never did start his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. So wrong on both counts. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) Somehow, he recovered, fathered a son, but soon was drinking again. We now approach these matters much more like a spiritual team and have developed richer relationships not dependent on being part of the organization. An honest pastor will say, Im sorry, but Im not qualified to give you advice about that, but that would be a rare pastor. It caused him to victim-blame everyone any time they shared some struggle they were going through with him, even though they were not at fault. And he does say at the end of the article the Bible does not condemn alcohol, and so I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking. We all hope that Dr. Sproul attempted to intercede with his sons alcoholism, rather than leaving his sons conscience to deal with it he was obviously in trouble. There is very good help, however, to deal with things like substance abuse. For example: Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. Sorry dear, but you couldnt be more wrong. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. Barbra said that R.C. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. I personally believe it was so he would not be a burden on us. At mass I saw a young man I knew to be in AA whom I have never seen at our parish before. Am still not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism. I realize that our understanding of addiction today does make it complex, but I am just frustrated with the hypocrisy that makes us look pathetic to non-believers. Perhaps church is part of the problem not part of any solution. In short, Velour, I was trying to say that my experience has shaped my view of excommunication as re-defining a relationship from fellowshipping together to reasoning together. But doesnt seem all that likely. I tried so hard to offer some comfort. an invitation to share his/her story. I did go back to my faith family. Not just over the alcohol, but based on his other actions (using a cheating site etc) he has disqualified himself. But we were in a semi-rural small town exurb and life is like that in smaller circles. One may be a choice, the other, an illness. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). It is impressive and respectable when one man has the confidence to tell a group of men ((NO)) to drinking when he does not want to or talking vulgar with the boys. * " S A> .,. Part of the real men drink beer and bourbon are two favorites at church picnics. Lea wrote: Heres my list again: I was laughing at the double-entendre of the typo. Yes, there sure is. But if he is routinely drinking and driving with kids in the car, he might have been better off to spend some time in jail since that is a serious concern. His snapping at Phil Johnson at the ill-advised ShepCon Q&A included the caveat that who he "platforms" speaks for his positions. You are correct. Nobody kicked her out. When those boundaries get repeatedly violated then a marital separation might be called for, although it doesnt always need to even be a legal separation filed in the courts. when H.A. It just sounds creepy to me. I also had lacerations above my eyes and on my arms and legs, along with scalded skin from an exploding radiator. Lights Out: Drinking The Reformed KoolAid?. Here bones had been severely broken, and I will never forget seeing her elbow and knee in traction. No excuses for it, ever. I know that scriptures about church discipline have been posted in their proper context, even with compassion for how to treat those who have repented. That is, if the words of sacred Scripture For God so loved the world hold any solid meaning for them. My mother was codependent in part because her father used to abuser her and her mother, and she raised me to have codependent behaviors, which left me vulnerable to being exploited or abused by other people. So, I got to thinking, how does sitting in a church help someone conquer alcoholism? Just last week our District Attorney got brought up on 13 felony counts. He needs to make amends for that. R.C. [or cut out entirely] Double that if other people start making comments to you about it. I was trying to offer some even-handed commentary. Sproul Jr. does need to be fired for his abusive conduct. And she showed that she had no clue what kinds of intervention should be done for an alcoholic (or substance abuser) in getting them into treatment and getting help for their spouse and children. Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. Shes getting her information, plus a lot of spin, from RC Jr. Julie Anne and I have each explained our thoughts on the topic of this alcoholic pastor multiple times. The 19-year old mother died, leaving s two-year old without a mother. Let the medical personnel deal with motivations, when and if the person ends up in treatment, if they think that is helpful. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. RC Sproul Jrinitiallypled *not guilty," proving he wasnot ready to face his issues. If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! I have been following RCs teaching for some time. 2. Not that grief for the lost of his first wife and his father ought to allow him to misbehave while remaining in pastoral ministry, and it certainly doesnt excuse him from a good hard look at things he did while Denise was still living (especially when she hadnt been diagnosed as terminal), but what hes doing is classic signs of grief gone metastatic. and me on Friday evening: Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. A passionate photographer, birder, genealogist, historian and occasional poet, John was 85. We heard stories of them being looked down on because a son or daughter was involved in drugs, alcohol, sex and other issues. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. In fact, why dont you just ask her opinion of treatment? Let me explain myself. I work with a lot of young people who have an alcoholic parent just met a new one today & it guts families & childhoods. Food Menu; Cart; Checkout; Return to website; is vesta ann sproul still alive And wisdom to know the difference. I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. Instead theyve provided a life of ease and luxury with hundreds of thousands of dollars every year for very little effort. SEE? Hes been a heavy drinker the majority of his life and hes proud of it. But we're not there yet. For the first time ever, Ive got the first comment, all the way from England. How do you see it different from me? If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Your post seems not to understand this, but if I have misinterpreted you, please correct me. I dont draw a hard line in the sand, which I think can go to the other direction of legalism. Anyway, some of the stuff I discovered is that AA (and groups similar to it) have a high failure rate. When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. He totaled many of my grandparents vehicles. Would you please clarify what training you have, paid or unpaid, with substance abuse? H.A. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! Welcome to TWW! Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. The solution to spiritual abuse isnt to cast aside what the Bible commands the church to do, its to obey the Bible. It didnt help me with depression or anxiety (thats the truth), and I did try attending a few different churches at low points in my life. As recovering alcoholic Steven King put it, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. ~ja]. I think its the same person. Please see the story that Friend posted today about how their churchs clergy dealt with a woman member who struggled with alcoholism. I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. I am very familiar with alcoholism and raising the bottom on alcoholics and not enabling their behavior. In short, Velour, I was trying to say that my experience has shaped my view of excommunication as re-defining a relationship from fellowshipping together to reasoning together. That night, he was literally set free 30 years later, I still communicate with him he is not the alcoholic he feared he would become. He certainly has been respected for years, especially in Reformed church circles. Also, we know both vehicles were traveling at 60 mph upon impact. I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A. In my comments, in case you missed them, I also talked about the importance of churches seeking professional advice for dealing with pastors (or other members) who have substance abuse problems. the second half of that comment was by me, not by Jeff. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. We dont know. Find local and national death notices, funeral notices, obituaries, in memoriams, and acknowledgements at funeral-notices.co.uk, plus a directory of over 3,000 UK Funeral Directors Can you please identify the comment? Ironically, the is no mandate or example in the Bible for accountability groups. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. I have no doubt that it wasnt the first time by any means that R.C. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? See how much jail time the gossipers serve. So behind the times.). His alcoholism is one of the least of the familys concerns. Time to get specific. I love them dearly & only wish they could have the love & grace that you & your church offered to her. RC Jr was also addicted to tobacco, in the form of an even nastier habit, chewing, but eventually gave it up. keggers). We were basically a para church ministry. Had therapy and continues to do so. She was in the hospital for several months after the accident. Without accountability, anything else is worthless. You dont. I dont disagree with you that a drunkard also needs medical assistance to give up his addiction, and very likely would also benefit from mental health assistance to deal with other underlying issues he may have. This issue of RC Jr having suffered tragedies (the loss of his wife in 2011 to cancer, the loss of his daughter in 2012), has been brought up here and elsewhere repeatedly. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. Lisa claims that RC Jr Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. Lisa probably has little if any practical experience with alkies. Sr. cant make Jr. stop drinking. I guess I was looking at it from the viewpoint of Sprouls victims. For me these people are PURE EVIL!! With Barbara because he does need to be put out of the church as a minister (and that needs to be permanent) and as a member (although that could potentially be temporary). 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. There is no excuse for it. In this mans case, the police authorities, legal professionals, and the public have observed boughs of demonstrated impairment and the use of Improper judgement. Through the connections we had made a lot of lives were changed. I am not against treatment, and Barbara did not say her opinion, so until she specifies, we cannot assume. "I try, like most of us, not to be easily offended. But! When I am around a person/s who are alcoholics, I will not drink alcohol because I dont want to be a cause for them to be tempted to drink. Thank you, Deb. And I use the analogy deliberately, because it has just about all of the dead-end singularities from which no light can ever escape: disagreement = attack, arguments from silence, arguments over competence, the old youre saying these things because youre hurt and angry stinkbomb. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. Sounds like something an enabling father would say, doesnt it? I hope you can now see why I saw a joke in the typo. 3. or a swindler [scams, cons] And wisdom to know the difference. It has been unopened for a month now, waiting for the opportune time to celebrate. I have been on the receiving end of that sense of entitlement, & preferential treatment of alcohol over humans many times. I had to go things alone, with the depression and the death of a family member. Lets discusshymens. My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jr's children still deal with today. I guess I put my question badly, for I wasnt asking if your feelings would change based on the identity of the person, but rather the nature of what that person lives and teaches and imposes on others. Should alcoholics and drug addicts be enabled? If you want to raise some new issues, go for it. No way to cure the disease, except to not drink. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. Nor is it brave of me to admit here in public that Im diabetic its not an admission at all, any more than it is to say that I have perfect pitch (musically) but that, at almost 49, I need glasses these days to read small print. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Moreover, I am even less convinced that your average church is in any way qualified to intervene in the typical alky scenario. And yes, we must continue to pray. Obviously, alcohol can cause neurological trauma, but it is unreal the amount of alcohol the people I saw who actually ended up in the hospital were drinking. Viola! But I think we do agree on some things. This man needs help. Otherwise, there may well be avoidable tragedy in their futures. I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. RC Jr., of course, was top dog in the congregation(s) he led because of his fathers reputation and influence, maybe? 14:23). Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329719. Where is his accountability with other people will cure certain issues such as.... Hold any solid meaning for them not to be fired for his abusive conduct never did start his brand., Hallelujah has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage with alcoholism and raising the bottom on alcoholics and not enabling behavior. Plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment that sense of entitlement, & treatment... Been unopened for a month now, waiting for the local Body to withdraw fellowship family and grieves over sin. Truly loves his children, he will get himself some serious, serious top-drawer psychological and help. Comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G that she was in the form of an alcoholic forcing. 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